Great, appreciate the clarification and book recommendation which I added to my reading list. Can’t help but notice the sources and tidbits are part of what I agree is knowledge that can be gained by studying animals. My original point reinforces we share the same view here. I want science to be the guiding factor in social affairs.
To concentrate on the well established insight gained from animal studies completely steps over the sensitive topic you know I intended, which is the degradation of the science behind sexual fluidity. The only group (and loudest) that is relevant here is transgender.
So if you please I would love to hear the science behind an ability for an organism to change an inherited trait. Is a transgender woman a man or woman?
Those who carefully read my previous replies will notice that I absolutely did not step over this question. The book I recommended details more than just animal and ecological examples, it also addresses physiological differences people of different sexes, sexual orientations, and gender identities.
Here’s the truth: the binary categories of male and female are not simple biological ones. Organisms cannot be neatly categorized as male or female, including humans. To put humans into these boxes is to ignore huge grey areas in our understanding of the biology underlying these traits. Even among XX or XY individuals, sex characteristics are polygenic and vary continuously, meaning that even looking at a person’s karyotype (which, you should understand, we hardly ever do) you could not reliably predict the appearance of external genitalia, the presence or absence of other sex characteristics like body hair or breasts, or the identity or orientation of a person.
Although I do not personally believe that having an underlying biological justification is necessary for a trans woman to be a valid woman, there definitely are physiological and biological realities that validate her experiences. Moreover, I don’t think we determine womanhood by biology at all-- for example, a XY human with complete androgen insensitivity would likely not even know HERSELF that she had a Y-chromosome, perhaps for her whole life, and you-- a random person on the street-- would be absolutely unable to tell.
If the question is, then, is there natural precedent for an organism’s sex chromosomes to be unpredictive of their sex characteristics or social roles? The answer is YES, unequivocally. If the question is, is there natural precedent for organisms to be able to intentionally change their sex? The answer is YES, absolutely. If the question is, is there natural precedent for organisms to have a social role that does not match the standard for individuals of their sex? The answer is also YES, 100%, certainly.
Thus, if the question is, are trans people representative of the norms of nature and the biological sciences? The answer is: You fucken BET.
Anyone who claims that trans women are somehow categorically distinct from other women is ignoring how loose the boundaries of womanhood already are. They are trying to twist the facts present under close examination of the biological world to fit their own human social narrative of gender essentialism. The facts of biology are absolutely on the side of trans individuals, this is the consensus among researchers-- and it is being ignored for political purposes in the same way the consensus among researchers on climate change is being ignored.
Like I said, I don’t have all day to engage on this, especially since almost everyone talking about trans people in relation to biological essentialism is not engaging in the discussion in good faith. The take home message is this: if you are earnestly wanting to understand what biological science says about trans people, go read that book, and listen to myself and other experts that trans women have every right and every fact on their side to support their identities.
As I feared we quickly left the realm of scientific method in favor of misguided correlations backed by opinions and feelings. This is exactly my problem, the pollution of the idea of sex to reach a manufactured state of inclusion at the expense of the scientific method.
Yes, body dysmorphia is a product of nature, it is an unfortunate natural occurence which may or may not serve a greater evolutionary purpose, yes as a society we must try to accommodate all mental illness, but society agrees a violent schizophrenic is dangerous, an autistic or disabled person should have a system of support. Transgender is the first of its kind that I know to demand the dissolution of truth to meet their desired want of acceptance.
But why are you throwing out all the sources your first post established that supports the concept of the distinct differences of inherited sex? There is in fact a species or two of animals that can change gender, humans are not one of them. You have elegantly tiptoed around the necessity of scientific backing to prove your claims by introducing irrelevant facts and making false correlations. Just another academic who has mastered the art of avoiding the truth of the matter.
All in all we share a very similar stance on the biology of the sexes. You are the one that can’t seperate your heart from your mind. Appreciate the discussion, I am built different as I love the satisifcation of being proven wrong. But you can’t provide me that luxury.
I just want to be clear (not to this person but to anyone reading) that they are wrong.
They are assuming what they will read as evidence in books and literature. It’s frankly kind of astonishing that I can say “I’m an expert, I’m a biologist, and trans women are women with tons of biological evidence for that validity” and then have this person say “AH but the SCIENCE says I’m right, you just have FEELINGS!”
To be clear, the science says I’m right, the feelings are irrelevant. Toodles!
Wtf are you talking about? They didn’t get emotional, they cited sources, they explained clearly that you’re wrong. But you can’t see past your desire to invalidate trans people to even bring yourself to attempt to refute any of the points they laid out, calling the actual research scientist immature and emotional. Once again, every accusation is a confession.
Not everyone appreciates the acquisition of knowledge which is the tougher path than blissful ignorance, all I want is proof backed with science. What mechanism is at work for you to know with certainity I am wrong when I say I can turn metal into gold?
I support transpeople, I am against sacrificing truth and the protections put in place to protect gender. Just like I am against turning an entire parking lot into handicap spaces.
Not everyone appreciates the acquisition of knowledge
You certainly don’t.
It has been explained to you that XX doesn’t always equal female and XY doesn’t always equal male and yet you ignore this as you can’t make an argument against it.
It has been explained to you that biological sex is a separate thing to gender, yet again you ignore it as this flies in the face of your argument.
It has been explained to you that sexual dimorphism has so many exceptions that it can’t be a rule, but once again, no refutation because you lack any knowledge beyond your desire to feel superior in your belief that you are right.
You say you’re not transphobic, but I believe words are cheap, actions are important, and your actions are very telling.
Until a transgender person can conceive offspring in their reversed role, the facts prove you are wrong. I will grant you the opportunity to abstract the concept of gender but you can’t prove to me the essential puzzle piece I am after, a human body cannot change sex.
Can I ask why you want science to validate someone’s lived experience? Isn’t the happiness of an individual when you call them their preferred name or gender more important than some sanctity that can be derived through the scientific method?
It just so happens that science has found repeatedly that trans people live better lives when their identities are affirmed, but why should you need that when you could just be nice to people without it causing you any issues whatsoever?
Great, appreciate the clarification and book recommendation which I added to my reading list. Can’t help but notice the sources and tidbits are part of what I agree is knowledge that can be gained by studying animals. My original point reinforces we share the same view here. I want science to be the guiding factor in social affairs.
To concentrate on the well established insight gained from animal studies completely steps over the sensitive topic you know I intended, which is the degradation of the science behind sexual fluidity. The only group (and loudest) that is relevant here is transgender.
So if you please I would love to hear the science behind an ability for an organism to change an inherited trait. Is a transgender woman a man or woman?
This is the last comment I will make to you.
Those who carefully read my previous replies will notice that I absolutely did not step over this question. The book I recommended details more than just animal and ecological examples, it also addresses physiological differences people of different sexes, sexual orientations, and gender identities.
Here’s the truth: the binary categories of male and female are not simple biological ones. Organisms cannot be neatly categorized as male or female, including humans. To put humans into these boxes is to ignore huge grey areas in our understanding of the biology underlying these traits. Even among XX or XY individuals, sex characteristics are polygenic and vary continuously, meaning that even looking at a person’s karyotype (which, you should understand, we hardly ever do) you could not reliably predict the appearance of external genitalia, the presence or absence of other sex characteristics like body hair or breasts, or the identity or orientation of a person.
Although I do not personally believe that having an underlying biological justification is necessary for a trans woman to be a valid woman, there definitely are physiological and biological realities that validate her experiences. Moreover, I don’t think we determine womanhood by biology at all-- for example, a XY human with complete androgen insensitivity would likely not even know HERSELF that she had a Y-chromosome, perhaps for her whole life, and you-- a random person on the street-- would be absolutely unable to tell.
If the question is, then, is there natural precedent for an organism’s sex chromosomes to be unpredictive of their sex characteristics or social roles? The answer is YES, unequivocally. If the question is, is there natural precedent for organisms to be able to intentionally change their sex? The answer is YES, absolutely. If the question is, is there natural precedent for organisms to have a social role that does not match the standard for individuals of their sex? The answer is also YES, 100%, certainly.
Thus, if the question is, are trans people representative of the norms of nature and the biological sciences? The answer is: You fucken BET.
Anyone who claims that trans women are somehow categorically distinct from other women is ignoring how loose the boundaries of womanhood already are. They are trying to twist the facts present under close examination of the biological world to fit their own human social narrative of gender essentialism. The facts of biology are absolutely on the side of trans individuals, this is the consensus among researchers-- and it is being ignored for political purposes in the same way the consensus among researchers on climate change is being ignored.
Like I said, I don’t have all day to engage on this, especially since almost everyone talking about trans people in relation to biological essentialism is not engaging in the discussion in good faith. The take home message is this: if you are earnestly wanting to understand what biological science says about trans people, go read that book, and listen to myself and other experts that trans women have every right and every fact on their side to support their identities.
As I feared we quickly left the realm of scientific method in favor of misguided correlations backed by opinions and feelings. This is exactly my problem, the pollution of the idea of sex to reach a manufactured state of inclusion at the expense of the scientific method.
Yes, body dysmorphia is a product of nature, it is an unfortunate natural occurence which may or may not serve a greater evolutionary purpose, yes as a society we must try to accommodate all mental illness, but society agrees a violent schizophrenic is dangerous, an autistic or disabled person should have a system of support. Transgender is the first of its kind that I know to demand the dissolution of truth to meet their desired want of acceptance.
But why are you throwing out all the sources your first post established that supports the concept of the distinct differences of inherited sex? There is in fact a species or two of animals that can change gender, humans are not one of them. You have elegantly tiptoed around the necessity of scientific backing to prove your claims by introducing irrelevant facts and making false correlations. Just another academic who has mastered the art of avoiding the truth of the matter.
All in all we share a very similar stance on the biology of the sexes. You are the one that can’t seperate your heart from your mind. Appreciate the discussion, I am built different as I love the satisifcation of being proven wrong. But you can’t provide me that luxury.
I just want to be clear (not to this person but to anyone reading) that they are wrong.
They are assuming what they will read as evidence in books and literature. It’s frankly kind of astonishing that I can say “I’m an expert, I’m a biologist, and trans women are women with tons of biological evidence for that validity” and then have this person say “AH but the SCIENCE says I’m right, you just have FEELINGS!”
To be clear, the science says I’m right, the feelings are irrelevant. Toodles!
If the science is right prove it objectively without using your immature feelings on the subject.
Wtf are you talking about? They didn’t get emotional, they cited sources, they explained clearly that you’re wrong. But you can’t see past your desire to invalidate trans people to even bring yourself to attempt to refute any of the points they laid out, calling the actual research scientist immature and emotional. Once again, every accusation is a confession.
Not everyone appreciates the acquisition of knowledge which is the tougher path than blissful ignorance, all I want is proof backed with science. What mechanism is at work for you to know with certainity I am wrong when I say I can turn metal into gold?
I support transpeople, I am against sacrificing truth and the protections put in place to protect gender. Just like I am against turning an entire parking lot into handicap spaces.
You certainly don’t.
It has been explained to you that XX doesn’t always equal female and XY doesn’t always equal male and yet you ignore this as you can’t make an argument against it.
It has been explained to you that biological sex is a separate thing to gender, yet again you ignore it as this flies in the face of your argument.
It has been explained to you that sexual dimorphism has so many exceptions that it can’t be a rule, but once again, no refutation because you lack any knowledge beyond your desire to feel superior in your belief that you are right.
You say you’re not transphobic, but I believe words are cheap, actions are important, and your actions are very telling.
Until a transgender person can conceive offspring in their reversed role, the facts prove you are wrong. I will grant you the opportunity to abstract the concept of gender but you can’t prove to me the essential puzzle piece I am after, a human body cannot change sex.
Just wanna say, I really appreciate your in depth responses! ❤️
She’s a woman. Next question?
Can I ask why you want science to validate someone’s lived experience? Isn’t the happiness of an individual when you call them their preferred name or gender more important than some sanctity that can be derived through the scientific method?
It just so happens that science has found repeatedly that trans people live better lives when their identities are affirmed, but why should you need that when you could just be nice to people without it causing you any issues whatsoever?