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Though I see Systemd as an improvement, I still do not like it.
The Chimera Linux FAQ captures my thoughts quite well:
https://chimera-linux.org/docs/faq#what-is-the-projects-take-on-systemd
I hated it and still do because for a period of years every weird, difficult to find issue on a bunch of servers was caused by systemd. It may be fine now, but I switched to Devuan and have had incredible stability. Poettering’s response to security issues was also terrible and honestly the dude seems like a real piece of shit.
Systemd on a server is disaster.
Excuse me but wtf? How many machines do you manage?
Right now five servers. Three with Alpine Linux and two FreeBSD servers.
Ok I see. Without any intention to sound offensive, 5 servers is not enough to really see the pro cons of either init system. People handling 50 times those numbers encounter issues where it starts to matter, and those people tend to claim that, while it ain’t perfect, it is a lot better than any alternative
BASED,
Try dinit too. It’s probably the easiest to use alternative to systemd
Void Linux doesn’t use systemd.
I use it because I’m frankly too dumb to use something else, but if that wasnt the case, i dont think id be speaking fondly of it.
I’m a ram usage fetishist, I absolutely disagree with the “unused ram is wasted ram” phrase that has caught on with people.
I see some of these distros running a graphical environment with only 90mb ram usage and i cream myself. All of them run something other than systemd, usually avoid GNU stuff, and…require you basically to be a developer to use them.
I already run a half broken, hacked together system due to my stubborness, I can’t imagine how fucked I’d be if I tried one of these cool kid minimalist distros.
Unused memory IS wasted memory and my Linux machines, AFAICR, always have buffered everything possible since twenty years ago, it’s not a systemd thing. It also speeds up things, why the long face?
So you just like having ram doing nothing? Unused ram is wasted ram. Distros cache a lot in ram because they can. I mean why hav RAM is you just want to stare at it and say ohh look at all the free RAM.
Even a system that uses 90mb of ram on a cold boot will accumulate gigs of stuff in cache if you’re using it. (assuming it has the memory for it) That isn’t what people have a problem with though.
Maybe this is an incorrect use of language on my part, but I feel like I’m not the only person who means “memory actively being used by a process” when referring to memory usage. I understand the whole linux ate my ram thing. That just isn’t what I or what I assume a lot of people mean when talking about this.
When I boot up my system, pull up my terminal, run htop, and see 800-1200mb being used just by processes (not in buffer, not in cache), that doesn’t raise any flags or anything, but I also know that some people have gotten their systems so streamlined they use 10x less than that. That’s all memory that could be used by other things. That could be the difference between a low memory system running a web browser or not. Could be the difference maker in a game someone wants to play on their system. There are endless possibilities.
Could be the difference maker in a game someone wants to play on their system.
One reality of the world is: the developers choose what hardware/OS configurations they target. If the makers of your game don’t target your RAM efficient system, you’re outta luck. Developers make their choices for their own reasons, but even with the ever-growing FOSS communities, the majority of developers work for a paycheck, that paycheck comes from profitable businesses and those businesses have very strong influence on what the developers work toward. The businesses only exist because they are profitable… FOSS may not be bound by those realities, but it lives in a world dominated by them.
90mb ram
If you’re in a system where 256mb of RAM is the limit, sure - go for the RAM efficient OS options, they’re out there.
Can you even buy less than 2GB of RAM in a desktop system anymore? Even the Raspberry Pi 5 starts at 2GB (and, yes, the older models have less, but I did say desktop system, implying: reasonable desktop performance.) Maybe if you feel the need to use a RasPi 3 as a desktop for something then you should dig around for one of your more efficient OS configurations, but I’ll note… back when RasPi 3 was the new model, Raspbian came default without systemd, but offered a systemd option. The systemd option booted from power off to the desktop (such as it was) in about 1/3 the time.
I’d say the main bad part of systemd is how it’s used and now expected everywhere.
If you search for some Linux guides or install something complicated or whatnot, they always expect you to have systemd. Otherwise, you’re on your own figuring how things work on your system.
This shouldn’t really happen. Otherwise, yes, it’s great, it integrates neatly, and is least pain to use.
There is no authority delegating responsibilities of writing tutorials for Linux. It is the responsibility of nobody and everybody. If you can’t find one for your problem, write it yourself when you have figured it out.
Sure, but I can’t single-handedly create an entire knowledge base on doing everything with X, so it’s a real and big limitation.
If you think so and that this is important, maybe you could be the one that makes it happen. Start a project and gather like-minded people. That is how Linux, FOSS and community driven efforts operate. It’s useless to complain that nobody else makes the effort if you have the capabilities but can’t be arsed making an attempt yourself.
I suggest Gentoo.
Great documentation, systemd optional.
I don’t use Gentoo but I still frequent the Gentoo Wiki and pick apart packages because it’s such a great resource for OpenRC.
Lol, this is borderline evil advice
But yeah, it works!
Gentoo is an easy OS, and works like a charm.
Alright you broke the edge of evil into a very different realm
I have struggled with Fedora for couple of years (graphics drivers after major updates), then Ubuntu got me down a couple of times (snaps and other malice).
Zero issues with Gentoo after the initial setup. You build it, update it, and IT WORKS. Also you can easily remove parts of software you’re building with USE flags. -telemetry, -x11, and you never care about it anymore.
I must assume Gentoo does require manual intervention here and there, and updates must take eternity for packages that are not precompiled, ain’t it so?
I have an 8 core CPU, but I have to admit I don’t use any DE.
Updates can take several hours if I don’t upgrade for a while, but PC is usable during them (you can set number of build threads).
Manual intervention is what I’ve said needed way more in Fedora, which left me without any video after updates, or Ubuntu which broke integrations or replaced my software.
Gentoo just… is.
There are sometimes updates that would require intervention if you do something special, nothing too difficult though, and you get a link to Wiki with working solutions.
I need to donate more money to that project.
In my opnion, systemd is like core-utils at this point.
It’s so integrated into most things and the default so many places, that most guides assume you have it.
I like systemd overall. The ease of use, uniform interface and nice documentation is awesome.
Though each time I try to run it on outdated hardware (say, my Thinkpad X100e, which is, well, a life choice xD) — it makes whole system much slower. IMO, openrc is not as bad, and in some ways it gives some capabiilties of systemd these days.
Unrelated but how do people feel about the ai images when used for something like this.
The font is very telling for being DallE
Couldnt have they just used real cards?
Absolutely hate it, I just close tabs I’m interested in reading if it has AI generated images.
i’m downvoting ai slop every chance i get. i’m sure it’s just as futile as downvoting every post that used the acronym ‘FAFO’. i hated that one because i think the people who used it thought they sounded sooo cool.
if you’ll excuse me, i’ve got some clouds outside i need to go shake my fist at.
Personally I think it’s fallen out of fashion. For my blog I’d either use a meme or other dump picture for each post. When generated images first came out I used a few for blog posts, it was new and interesting and said “I’m interested in technology and like playing around with new things”.
Nowadays I’m back on the meme pics. I feel now it’s so much easier to generate images, it more says “I want to look professional but also spend no money and have no standards”.
People would be less mad if you straight up used a stock image with a watermark so I don’t understand why people go out of their way to use AI when they know people will comment on it and it will detract from the point of the article.
Also, using AI in the thumbnail makes people automatically assume you’re using AI in the text as well. And if you’re not doing that, why would you lessen the perceived value of your writing by making it seem like you are?
It just seems pointless and actively harms your actual goals because people will get hung up on the fact that you used AI and ignore your actual valid points.
While I mostly agree with you (and 100% on it distracting from the article), I think you’re not thinking about image rights.
If you’re a serious blogger with a good sized blog, a lawsuit or DMCA or otherwise is potentially a killer outcome of using an image you don’t 100% sure have the rights to. With AI, you can be 100% sure you can use the image however you want, without any repercussions. I’d imagine that’s huge in the considerations for a blogger.
With AI, you can be 100% sure you can use the image however you want, without any repercussions.
For now… maybe. The courts haven’t really settled that issue yet.
I dont think this is a reasomable counterpoint because the target audience in question would also vastly prefer shit as simple as an mspaint illustration or a dithered irl image.
Also, it is quite feasible to find royalty free images, and I have no idea where you’re getting the impression it is not. There are a host of images that provide licensing metadata. Google image search and co. can find these. It’s simply a matter of verifying the license authenticity.
It’s just fundementally stupid.
Unsplash, Freepik, Pexels, and countless other sites exist where you can get free images with clear licensing.
Any idea how well verified the images are on those sites? What’s the chance that one with copyright gets uploaded and I get hit with a giant fine for using it?
Using an image with a watermark will get you sent legal threats or fines.
I strong hate these imagines with a piss tint. I can’t stand them. And the text has these tiny AI-flavoured imperfections too.
The ‘recreated’ photorealistic thumbnails on youtube are even worse, IMHO – especially when they involve subtly warped faces of familiar people.
Clocked it right away. I hate it 100% of the time.
Also that leftmost card hovering behind the hand
I think it strongly detracts from the post. I basically skipped right to the comments without clicking the link because I’m assuming it’s AI slop, and I’m hoping the comments are interesting.
I only read the blog because of the thumbnail.
AI should be able to do a really good systemd debate by now, the available training material is immensely huge.
The piss stain colour palette confirms it.
I totally agree.
I hate to admit I didn’t want anything to do with systemd because it took me forever to get somewhat familiar with some other mainstream init systems.
Then, I didn’t care for a while until I developed software that had to keep running using some sort of init system. The obvious choice was whatever the default I had (systemd) and I fell in love with the convenience of systemd (templates, timers, …). I started shipping sample systemd with the things I provide & yes, you are on your own if you use something else.
I decided to finally lean into using systemd more while i’ve been using NixOS, since the OS already relies heavily on it anyway. Created targets for my window managers, starting all my programs with services instead of autostart scripts, etc. And it worked fine for the most part, except for some reason, in qtile the systray widget refuses to load the nm-applet when it’s started through systemd. Waybar does not have this problem. I can’t help notice that systemd is not just a little slower, which isn’t the biggest deal in the world, but it also tends to hang more often when shutting down, which is a bit annoying and reminds me of windows lol. Before NixOS i used Void, and while i never really cared too much about what init system i’m running, i can’t help but really appreciate runit for being so simple and fast. I’m thinking of moving back to Void but using the Nix package manager on top. I recently found a solution to the nix driver problem when using it on other distros, so now i should be able to combine the best of both worlds.
It’s refreshing to read to someone that actually says “I was so wrong”
I was wrong also with systemd, I hated it mainly because I already knew init.d, where files are, where configs where etc. Some years later hate is gone, I’m not a power user, but I just now know how to handle my things with systemd and all is good.
You do realize that it’s not a binary between systemd and SysV, right? There are modern replacements for SysV other than systemd, like dinit, OpenRC, s6 and they all strive to address the shortcomings of SysV
And they are all playtoys, unused in production by anyone serious for a reason.
I see most often that it’s the people who live in init.d - interact with it multiple times a day - who are most vocal about systemd hate. I’m going to call “old dogs don’t like new tricks” on that one.
I do get into that layer of system maintenance, but it’s maybe 1-2% of my time, mostly a set-it and forget-it kind of relationship. There was a time when the old ways were easier due to more documentation and guides on the internet, which I lean on heavily because I interact with this stuff so rarely. Those days passed, for me, 8-10 years back.
I’m over here still using OpenRC. Mostly because I want to. Some servers I run have systemd on them. systemd is generally nice. OpenRC has finally gained the ability to run user services, which is also very nice.
dinit also has the ability to run user services, FWIW.
I’ve never used any other init system since I’m relatively new to Linux (8 years of use). So, systemd is all I know. I don’t mind it, but I have this one major issue with it. That “stop job for UID 1000…” Or whatever it says. It’s hands down the most annoying thing I have ever experienced in Linux. Making me wait for 3 minutes sometimes is just insane. I know I can go in and make it wait for 5 seconds
/etc/systemd/system.confor whatever, but why? Also, another one usually pops up.Other than that, I really like how I can make timers. I like how I can make scripts run on boot, logout or login. And I like how I can make an app a background service that can auto start if they ever crashed. Maybe all of this can be done with other init systems? I wouldn’t know, but I like these in systemd
I’ve been using systemd on most of my systems since it was released; I was an early jumper to upstart as well.
The thing I don’t like about systemd is how pervasive in the OS it is. It violates the “do one thing, do it well” Unix philosophy, and when systemd went from an init system to starting to take everything over, I started liking it less.
My issues with systemd is that it isn’t an unmitigated success, for me. journald is horrible: it’s slow and doesn’t seem to catch everything (the latter is extremely rare, but that it happens occasionally makes me nervous). There are several gotchas in running user services, such as getting in-session services working correctly (so that user services can access the user session kernel keyring).
Recently I’ve been using dinit on a system, and I’m pretty happy with it. I may switch all of my systems over to it; I’m running Arch everywhere, and while migrating Arch to Artix was scary the first time, in the end it went fairly smoothly.
Fundamentally, systemd is a monolithic OS system. It make Linux into more of a Windows or MacOS, where a bunch of different systems are consolidated under a single piece of software. While it violates the Unix philosophy, it has been successful because monolithic systems tend to be easier to use: users really only have to learn two command-line tools, vs a dozen. Is it categorically better, just because the user interface is easier for new Linux users?
Systemd is modular not monolithic. Distros choose which parts of system d to implement and it just happens to be most of it since its really good at what it does.
You cannot even decouple SystemD from Glibc, never mind separating the various components from each other. It is a bunch of processes but it is designed as a monolith.
What do you mean by modular though? I assume there’s serious coupling amongst systemd modules that make “modularity” just theoretical
Its like 70 different files and not all are required. You can swap out parts of systemd like run a different init system.
Sure but I wouldn’t say something is modular just because some things are modules. LIke yeah you can swap out networkd, but how about journald?
I would. There are a lot of modules only a few have hard systemd dependencies
It is not modular. This is a lie Poettering keeps pushing to defend building a huge edifice of interdependent systems.
Look at the effort required to factor out logind. It can’t just be used in it’s own; it has a hard dependency on systemd and needs code changes to decouple.
I will repeat that journald is really bad at what it does, and further assert that you can not run systemd without journald, or vice versa. That you can not run systemd without getting timed job control. Even if you chose not to use it, it’s in there. And you can not get time job control without the init part. In most unix systems, init and cron are utterly decoupled and can be individually swapped with other systems.
Systemd is not modular if you can’t swap parts out for other software. Systemd’s modularity is a bald-faced lie.
The one exceptions are homed and resolvd, which are relatively new and were addedlong after systemd came under fire for being monolithic. And, ironically, they’re the components most distributions don’t use by default.
Systemd boot, Systemd network and elogind I’m pretty sure can be decoupled. There’s 69 modules so I’m not entirely sure about all of them just the ones ive encountered.
I know logind can’t easily be, because I ran Artix for a while and they were using a decoupled version of it, and there was a big discussion about swapping it for something else because it was so hard to maintain.
I’ve never used anything but systemd. I feel fine about it, but I think I’d feel the same way about not using it.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/systemd/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus systemd Linux.
GNusysdlin
