I mostly agree, and did the same with my second gen lab build - instead of shiny new NUCs like I had used round 1, I bought old off lease Dell Xeon boxes. SO MANY PROS -
- Got them up to 14c/28t each
- They can take GPUs and actually do heavy transcoding/ML work
- They can take up to like, 128GB of memory, which is GREAT when they’re all hypervisors
The downsides can’t be denied though -
- Even without the GPUs and beefed up CPUs, they are power hogs - the CPU alone uses more than an ENTIRE NUC
- They run HOT
- They run LOUD
The same holds true for off-lease SFF stuff, Lenovo and the likes …
So while reuse/repurpose is absolutely of the utmost importance, no question - when it comes to technology and how quickly it advances and miniaturizes, a thorough and logical pros/cons list is often required.
I’d add another option though - if you do need what a Pi brings to the table - do you really need a shiny new Pi 5? Is it possible a used Pi 3 or Pi 4 would do the trick, and check the reuse box?
The power aspect is a lot bigger of a factor than I would have thought. I had an old computer I was going to use as a server for Foundry that I could keep up all the time, but when I measured its wattage and did the math, it would cost me $20 a month to keep on. A pi costs like $2 to keep running, so it paid for itself pretty quick
RPis aren’t energy efficient either. Any situation where you are thinking of putting more than one of them in a cluster you should just buy mini PCs instead.
Too late…
Look for refurbished elitedesk g5, it runs debian magnificantly! I splurged a bit on the memory and ssd and have a quite nice desktop (developer).
this is the way
Low power and arm architecture are big differentiators between Pi and laptops.
I totally agree recycle laptops where possible, but they’re generally noisier and less energy efficient plus the battery degrades over time and is a fire risk.
They’re not necessairly a good fit for always-on server or service type uses comparef to a small board like Raspberry Pi. But a cheap or free second hand laptop is definitely good for tweaking, testing and trying our projects.
How many people keep up with this misconception RPis are ultra efficient? They are bargain basement SoCs. The power draw isn’t that low (25W PSU), and the performance they deliver isn’t great. They are all made using older process nodes and techniques that result in less efficient processors. Add those together and you will find they have less performance per watt than all modern laptops with the screen turned off, and less than most Mini PCs. Mini PCs and other SBCs are where it’s at for efficient home labs. If you can find a Mac with Apple Silicon for cheap they are even better. Everyone in the home labbing community pretty much knows this by now. I struggle to understand why Lemmy hasn’t got this through their brains. I think it’s partially the miconception that ARM is always better, and partially down to people not understanding that low maximum power draw and efficiency are the same thing. Not even thinking about idle power or performance per watt.
Better than an old laptop, get a mini-pc like thinkcentre tiny. They’re more upgradeable, space-efficient, power efficient, have better cooling
I have an old pentium laptop N3520 with 4GB DDR3. I removed everything and put it in a receiver box 1U size. It consumes so little energy that it can run 5-7 hours from its battery (I call it build in USV). Last time I measured 3-7w. Also passiv cooled , no noise. Another machine I use , is with a i7 4770 with 16GB for Proxmox, 7-20w , peak is much higher but rarely used , only on boot and vm startup.
Oh and the i2c etc stuff, I connected ESP32 and other microcontrollers over USB.
What is i2c?
A communication protocol used in microchips, small modules & embedded devices that uses 2 wires. Think something like USB, but dead simple.
Or any compact pc like gigabyte brix, nucs, lenovos , etc. you can get those for 70-200 on ebay and they are amazing for running any homelab projects, including stream services like jellyfin with hardware decoding.
It’s not just the size constraint. The power usage is significant…
If you have the lid closed, you’re looking at 3 to 15 watts to have a laptop running in the background doing some basic server shit.
Maybe a little more under high load, but those are going to be intermittent and not constant.
I’m just saying it’s not that much more electricity usage, and the recycling more than offsets the CO2.
Not so sure about the last part. It takes ehhh about 3kg of c02 to produce 1 Watt for a year. Carbon footprint to build a laptop is about 200kg or so, but you’re not offsetting one of those you’re offsetting the raspberry PI you WOULD have bought which is just a small fraction of that. After a year or 2 you’ve almost certainly burned through your c02 savings if it’s on all the time.
A raspberry pi is not as efficient as people are claiming. They need up to 25W PSU for a reason. Laptops can idle lower than that certainly. Something like a MacBook Air M1 would idle in single digit territory, as would any netbook basically ever made. Only really high performance or older laptops have idle power draw issues since battery life is a major selling point of a laptop. Said laptop is probably also faster than a raspberry pi. The people building Pi clusters are really not doing themselves any favors with power efficiency.
Nah no way does the average ewaste tier laptop use less power than a raspberry pi for any given task. The power consumption floor for a laptop may be lower than the rpi ceiling but that’s not a fair comparison
Benchmark it and tell me. The truth is that most RPis are made using older process nodes to reduce costs. Laptops are often made using the best avaliable process node and core design. A modern raspberry pi 5 uses a 16nm processor with Cortex-A76 design from 2018. A laptop in 2015 would be using 14nm Broadwell processors from Intel. This was a time when 15W U series processors were gaining popularity, so sustained load power consumption is quite low. A 2015 laptop is 10 years old, and wouldn’t run Windows 11, so will be ewaste this year. Same with a lot of 8 year old machines actually.
Laptop performance when closed is quite variable, but depending on where you live, each 10W of idle consumption 24/7/365 could cost you somewhere around $20/yr (assumes @$0.20/kWh, YMMV). This isn’t overwhelming on it’s own, but it is “cost difference between a junked laptop and a Raspberry Pi” kinda money.
And you are often paying 140-200 for a pi nowadays to make it have the same usability as a laptop (pi, power supply, sata hat, data drive because SD cards simply fail after a while under server IO) while you can get cheap used laptops for 0-100.
So unless you are running it for more than half a decade (which rarely happens with selfhosters for a main server), you are probably spending more in total on the pi.
I think SD card failure rates are way overblown if you’re buying from reputable manufacturers (Sandisk, Samsung). I’m sure they do occasionally fail, but I’ve never experienced one.
You’re right, for really intensive tasks the costs can climb, but I see people asking for ideas for what to do with a junk laptop and the top suggestion is always something like pi-hole or a bookmark manager that could run on a potato.
Like with most things in life, it depends.
I used to think so too, but my pi-hole just died the other week after four years of uptime. Couldn’t work it out, finally pulled the SD card out to reinstall the OS and found my laptop wouldn’t recognise it.
Made me glad I don’t run my mailserver on a Pi anymore!
Laptops are not generally designed to run like that with a closed lid. Heat dissipation is designed around the idea the laptop is open and some of it is through the keyboard surface. The lid closed would change that.
Systems can of course be setup to power off the display but for server/service uses open laptops may not be efficient space wise.
Having said that if the scenario is low power use the heat dissipation may not be a major issue. But if there is an unremovable battery i’d still be concerned about heat dissipation with the lid closed and even just the battery itself regardless of heat dissipiation.
Just remove the lid entirely.
really depends on the laptop. a lot of laptops exhaust off the side.
Not quite. Unless the system has pretty advanced power management and is using very recent technology with high density, it’s unlikely that an x64 chipset will use less power than a comparably powered arm64 chipset. Not just the processor, but the smaller board is actually a power saver and allows it to generate less heat meaning both less power wasted and dissipated as heat as well as less power needed for fans to properly dissipate the heat. I’ve never seen a laptop use 3W at idle when considering the whole device, maybe just the CPU, but not if you include the rest of the components like RAM and disks and power supply. And especially true in a laptop that is old enough that it’s being recycled. Heck, the power supply and charger alone might be using 3W at idle with full battery.
With a raspberry pi 4, the typical power usage for the 2GB RAM model is 5W under load for the whole device and about half that for idle. Add a couple of watts for the extra memory and wider bus on the 8GB model and other things can add to that, but that’s mostly accurate. The pi 5 is a little more and the 3 is a little less. Of course, the efficiency of the laptop at full load might end up being better than a comparable number of raspberry pis it would take to do the same amount if work, but comparing a single pi or any other reputable arm-based, single board computer to a single laptop at idle is always going to be that way.
Battery charging circuits don’t operate continuously when the device is charged. Pi also still needs a PSU, typically a phone charger, and for a server application would need an SSD or HDD in most cases. SD cards have lower performance, write endurance, and capacity after all. A single raspberry pi couldn’t match even a somewhat old laptop in performance. In terms of actual efficiency (performance per watt) Pis don’t do that well as they are using cheap processors made using old core designs and even older process nodes. Even the latest Pi 5 uses a 16nm process node with a core design from 2018. A 10 year old laptop might have 14nm process node which would be better. This means that a laptop would have more performance, so even if it had more power consumption at peak it could still end up with significantly better performance per watt, and that extra performance allows it to idle more often as it spends less time processing requests.
Of course the ultimate in performance per watt is always going to be a modern high power server or an Apple Silicon device. Mini PCs can also do well for home use, and are much lower power so better suited to less demanding usage, and have the best performance per watt for consumer devices. The M4 Mac Mini for example is pretty much best in class in performance per watt, and low power consumption at the same time.
If you have the lid closed, you’re looking at 3 to 15 watts to have a laptop running in the background doing some basic server shit.
Not all laptops make effective use of power with the lid closed, sadly. Not saying this as a correction, but for others to know that they need to make sure these settings are available in the bios of the system they are buying.
Fake news. Modern RPis need up to 25W PSU. Even old laptops could idle lower than that, as otherwise they wouldn’t be able to get significant battery life. Turning off the screen will also really lower their power consumption.
You’re comparing a laptop at idle to the power supply for a pi that needs to power it at full load plus overhead and inefficiencies. That’s like comparing apples to an orange tree.
There are also a lot of mini PCs that are comparable in price to a Raspberry Pi 5 once you factor in the cost of a case, SD card, and power supply for the Pi.
That’s only start up cost. What about ongoing 24/7 costs after 2 years?
Probably not much of a difference. These mini PCs can run at single digit wattage too and you won’t be buying new SD cards every 6 months.
Notable mention, amd64 chipsets are more widely supported than ARM.
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unless you buy really stupidly, every single of those points is not true.
ARM life!
Where are these cheap e waste laptops with gpio and actually low power?
Digging through e-waste bins is one of my hobbies.
Somebody already asked, but what are good locations to do this? Do you ever get harassed by property owners or law enforcement?
I’m in an apartment building, so I just browse the one here whenever I take the trash out. I don’t think anyone has noticed, or they’ve elected to mind their own business if they have.
There’s so much stuff that could still be used that it honestly isn’t funny, and that’s just in my own bin. How much more is being wasted across the country? But at least it’s in the recycling and not the trash, so that’s something, I guess.
What kind of place do you go to to find these things? Sometimes I get really lucky (see my post history about my wonderful new printer), but if I could increase my odds that would be cool.
I’m just lucky enough to have one at my apartment building, and very wasteful neighbors.
Back when I lived in a (quite nice) apartment building I was constantly surprised at the things people threw out. Perfectly good furniture but also stuff like perfectly functional printers, artwork, computer cases…
If you go near college housing there’s usually a given day of the year (either moving day or an official cleanup day) when tons of people put out stuff they don’t want to bother with keeping/moving. It’s Hippie Christmas baby!
any luck with gpio and 5W power usage so far?
Worth noting pie 4 and 5 no longer recommend 5w PSU. And tend to fail if anything is drawing on the USB.
No gpio but old centrino laptops make excellent low power servers. My primary server was a first gen centrino from 2011 up until recently and I think it only used 12w idle after putting a SSD in there. Had it’s own UPS built in.
There are usb gpio devices which can fulfill the connectivity bit. Pretty sure you are sol with the 5w though 😊
The Raspberry Pi Zero in USB gadget mode can be used for GPIO. If you don’t want to setup gadget mode, get Pi Zero W.
The market is about to be flooded with them with Windows 10 going EoL in October.
raspberries were viable while those were cheap. I think I got a 3b (plus?) in pre-deficit years for like $25 second-hand AND I got some shitty case AND a microSD card AND it could run off of a somewhat normal USB phone charger. so using those instead of a 10 year old decommissioned desktop was an awesome value proposition.
nowadays, those devices are encroaching on trip-digits territory and the power adapter is like $30. the computing power you can buy for a third of that designates raspberries exclusively for niche use cases where footprint and power consumption are primary considerations.
not to mention fake Jason Statham just rubs me the wrong way, like all them “visionaries”. he makes this sound like he’s the head of Feed Africa or something, on a noble mission to save humanity and whatnot.
The Zero 2W is cheaper and pretty much the same spec as the Pi 3.
Oh what I was about to correct you but apparently I always assumed the Zero 2 had the dual core chip of the Pi 2, not a quad core
I would say it can sometimes be nice to have an old Laptop for this purpose, you have to slightly over build your solar but can be nice to have a mouse and keyboard attached and monitor, ssh works. Still have an hp laptop with a core i5 2nd gen sitting out in my greenhouse, is a little more power hungry but not terrible on idle, and is nice to be able to configure changes to watering without going back inside or wrecking the zen by bringing phone.
Right? I made the realization a while ago that refurbished mini PCs are a way better fit for most of my homelab needs.
Sure, if power consumption is your #1 priority then you’d want some ARM solution. But for my use cases, I’ve found myself fighting with software support and the relatively low computational power of even the newer RPis.
Also, T-series Intel chips (the low power ones) have pretty good idle power consumption and don’t spin up the fan too much given their lower power. And a lot of uses cases require sticking a fan and heat sinks on an RPi so you lose the quietness benefit.
Also also, you (still?) need proprietary blobs to use a bunch of the hardware on RPis. You can go full open source on a regular old PC.
