timemachineyeah
drives me up a wall living in a very very red district, like “no democrat is ever going to win any local election, let alone a real leftist” district, like “our school board members ran on who was the most anti-mask” red, like “I pass white supremacist signs on the way to buy weed” red
and being in the local leftist community and the guy who runs the anarchist book club and the lady who helps keep the warming shelters open and the people who marched on city hall when a local business was getting death threats for having a drag show are all members of a discord and we get on this discord and have frank discussions about how best to vote
the people who do the protests and the mutual aid and all the real work
going “okay, they’re both fascists, but this one lacks ambition and seems happy to just glide in the position” or “they both suck, but this one can be reasoned with if you frame it patriotically enough” like we don’t even have a democrat to vote for. we know what a vote is. we know what we hope accomplish with it. we know what it can do, and we know what it can’t.
and going from those discussions to here where people think that your vote is some kind of fucking??? enabling maneuver??? as if someone isn’t going to end up in that seat regardless of what you do???
we didn’t build this system, we just live in it. we’re just trying to survive. a vote isn’t a statement of your values, it’s not an endorsement, it’s not a marriage contract, it’s a strategic play you make to keep alive.
the biggest mistake I see leftists making is overestimating their own popularity. “well but everyone would be leftist if they just-” no, stop, 1) you can’t possibly know that 2) everyone will not just
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Here in Huntsville, AL, a Democrat recently won a representative position by a wide margin.
It’s possible to turn a red city blue or keep a blue city in a red state. It just takes all people to show up to vote.
And here’s the rub: Democrats far out number Republicans, so the more people that vote, the higher the percentage that Democrats can win by.
did you guys get anything concrete out of this effort? is actual policy changing in a meaningful way? is this just about the blue guy winning?
It literally just happened, so that remains to be seen.
What I do know is that the Republican representatives have been taking away freedoms and enacting bad policy for decades. So the change is welcome.
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Yeah, like literally every election campaign by every politician ever. Do you know how elections work? Or are you 12?
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Sure, if you really only have two shitty choices, by all means pick the one that’s less shitty. That isn’t what Democrats are proposing, though. They have 4 choices (or more) and are eliminating candidates based on “electability”, not values.
Going back to OP’s Discord group, what happens when a progressive runs for office? Do they support them? Or do they say “Sorry, you have no chance of winning here, so we’re going to support the lesser fascist”?
Democracy isn’t a sprint, it’s a marathon you have to participate in for the rest of your life, every vote should be made strategically to take the next step toward whatever your goal is (and sometimes, to try to mitigate the size of a step taken backwards)
Support your candidates of choice in primaries, but if it becomes clear that they won’t win, we must swallow our pride and pick the lesser of two evils, because baby steps forward (or active harm reduction) is better than nothing
100% THIS. EVERY WORD.
So… SO many people here on lemmy need to read this, or have this read to them.
You only hear this argument pop up when they’re admitting their candidate is shit but it’s the only choice you have besides the other guy.
THIS ISNT A REAL CHOICE AND WE NEED TO STOP PRETENDING IT IS. This is literally how the system maintains it’s 2 party nature.
Yes, you should vote. And vote for who you actually believe in and who you think will actually make a difference, not just the “safe bet”. It’s a prisoners dilemma and we’re all too afraid to make the right move.
So… again, because you clearly didn’t read it:
“we didn’t build this system, we just live in it. we’re just trying to survive. a vote isn’t a statement of your values, it’s not an endorsement, it’s not a marriage contract, it’s a strategic play you make to keep alive.
the biggest mistake I see leftists making is overestimating their own popularity. “well but everyone would be leftist if they just-” no, stop, 1) you can’t possibly know that 2) everyone will not _just_”
Oh I read it. It’s a load of crap. “Leftists” are part of the broken system too. US “liberals” are still conservatives in most other nations.
Voting “just to survive” is voting to keep the system intact. But keep arguing how you’re not part of the problem while voting for the current ruling class that keeps it entrenched.
You can say whatever you want. Doesnt make it true. And requoting it thinking that’s sufficient to change someone’s mind shows how out of touch you are with discourse as well. Just keep shouting the same thing over and over and eventually it’ll be true. Sound familiar?
do you guys seriously think we don’t vote? dude im forced to in my country, this is completely irrelevant.
you are not even listening, if you wanna do something go organize and stop wasting time and brainpower on that shitty theater for fucks sake.
your country is already fascist and already not a democracy. scribbling on ballots aint changing this.
“oh lets me choose the fascist that can be reasoned with!”, “choose the genocidal racist with a blue hat instead of the red one!” you guys can’t be that dumb, I refuse to believe it.
We know it’s bad. The point is that we unfortunately have to choose the lesser of the two evils, like it or not.
No, we don’t.
The first step is admitting that the State won’t let us vote its power away.
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I’m done being lectured.
If moderates and liberals won’t allow anyone to fight fascism head on then it’s not just a possibility it’s a guarantee. Fascism runs on misery and this country has plenty of it. Addressing unaffordable housing, healthcare and education would take the fight out of people. When people are busy living and enjoying their lives they don’t have the time or energy to worry about what somebody else is doing.
And to establishment Democrats credit, they pay lip service to addressing these things but that’s about it. They claim they can’t do anything without the presidency, a majority, a super majority, a super majority without any defectors. There’s always an excuse on why nothing is getting done. But losing isn’t an option. So if the establishment Democrats want us to believe we can’t accomplish anything through traditional means for decades then guess what, it’s time to try something less traditional.
Enter the rail strike, a real opportunity for Democrats to show who’s side they’re really on. Here’s a clear cut fight between workers and corporations. Time to bring these disagreements to a head and draw a line. What do they do? Under Joe Biden’s direction 44 Democrat senators vote with 36 Republican senators to block the rail strike.
Liberals and moderates praise Biden for this. They praise Biden for siding against American workers. We are not on the same side.
If liberals and moderates truly believe Trump and MAGA are a threat, if they truly believe Democracy is worth protecting then it’s time to compromise with leftists and progressives. If they won’t do it now they never will. Which means the choice isn’t between fascism and democracy. It’s between fascism now or later.
I choose now. Let’s get this over with.
This is one of those things where I’m in agreement but I’m also fucking tired of hearing the “lesser of two evils” bullshit (in general). The country is going to continue to drag right because that’s what benefits the ruling class. That’s the reality. Both parties and both candidates are playing their roles in this continued push. Thinking we actually have a say in the end is the first mistake, like voting in federal elections in the US is some massive action. It’s the whole ratchet effect in politics. You can either vote for the far right candidate, or you can vote for the center right one. That’s it. Those are the choices. We can sit here and make these absolutely garbage people the focus of our entire discussion and move the needle nowhere, despite knowing exactly how this is going to play out, or we can make it moot and focus on organizing while not wasting time talking about filling a circle in on a piece of paper while patting ourselves on the back. In the scheme of things the working class can do, that is the bare minimum.
I don’t give a shit about any of these candidates. All I know is that one is committing genocide and the other is a boomer criminal that employs a bunch of family members and other sycophants, who would also commit the same genocide if given the chance. Because thats what the ruling class beast demands and nothing stops it. People make voting into a bigger thing than they do organizing and educating. Bide your time. Vote if you want or don’t. Scolding people is a waste of time and it’s divisive. It continues the divide that the ruling class wants because they know it’s one of the key factors that prevent the working class from uniting as one. We have the numbers. The fucking Ants movie tried to tell us.
The reality is that if we want real, actual change, it’s going to require us to get out of that comfort zone where we fill in a little circle with a pen and then act like we moved mountains. That right there is privileged lib shit. Your vote isn’t going to mean fuck all when we’ve witnessed the candidates change for years, while war and genocide continued under all of them; while the police state thrived under all of them; while trans and women’s reproductive rights were taken away or hindered under all of them.
These are the times when I wish Fred Hampton was still alive.
Thank you for writing all of this out. It needs to be said more. We’re not going to break the system constantly acquiescing to a rigged system.
I’m happy to do it. I know I have some unpopular opinions, but part of breaking the cycle is getting uncomfortable.
We need to collectively realize that the ruling class will never let things deviate too far out of their control. I’m definitely not saying one shouldn’t vote (you should; it’s easy and the least you can do), but we need to stop hinging so much on it. We’ve been doing the “lesser of two evils” thing for what feels like an eternity. It’s tired and we need to move beyond it because it’s a divisive key set piece in the arsenal of the ruling class. The division is the intent. If we keep arguing over which old white guy in a suit is worse, we’re spinning our wheels in the mud.
We’re talking about a government that has been swaying people’s minds and overthrowing governments in other countries for decades. They absolutely do use the same exact tactics on the working class in the US and it would be naive to think they don’t. Everyone is affected by propaganda. That’s a big reason the TikTok ban immediately received 81% approval, when other things like basic human rights get little to no traction. And it’s not some thing that happens in the span of 5 years; it’s a long, arduous process that requires a ton of moving pieces and has multiple benefits for the ruling class.
Vote or don’t vote. All that matters is remembering that the working class collective is stronger as one unit. That kind of unification and the numbers behind it are what truly strike fear into a fascist government.
Can you please start a newsletter or something? I want to subscribe. You’re saying the same frustrating things I’ve been saying for ages. We need more of this voice presented. It’s critical that we start breaking away all of the apathy.
